1780 British warship found in Lake Ontario

That would be cool to do if technically it was possible, But a 226 ton 80 ft All Wooden Ship in 500 ft of water that is 226 years old would never survive the trip to the surface even if we did have a means to raise her, plus the second that wood was exposed to oxygen, it would disintegrate, it would take years to seal every pore in that ship. That is one huge task.

Actually Tedd I believe they have raised bigger ones and older and in salt water. The Vasa (Wasa) a massive Dutch warship on her maiden voyage in 1628 sank in the harbor due to open cannon ports when she heeled over was recovered pretty much intact although a great deal of preservation work had to be done and a significant portion of the British Mary Rose (700 crew lost) also was recovered. Actually if the money is available almost any ship could be raised although probably not in one piece. The advances they have made in robotics and deep sea recovery is truly incredible.

luckydog,
No question on deep sea divers I worked on a number of DSRV projects and that one is always a subject I stay close with and am fond of. I have been to Vasa many time including the day they pulled her into the museam. The huge difference is what Vasa is. She is a typical Swedish top-heavy way overbuilt war cruiser that can and did survive almost anything. And at any cost. She also had a triple keel and double lapstray hull. That is not very common. And its hard to come close to the work on a Swedish ship.

But don't forget, that project was over 22 years in the works with some of the worlds top experts with just about open project limits. My guess is that a repeat of that magnitude, would be hard to find.

Vasa at 100 ft very rugged ship vs the HMS Ontario at 500 ft and a far more fragile hull ? my gut feeling is its not going to happen with our economy. Sweden has the funds and the public interest, I am not so sure the US does.

Sure via robotics and goodies I used at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute, I could snatch things out, but that would cause some nasty damage.

My guess is the public support would be there when the bill for it was discussed. just my feeling.

Tedd - I think the U.S. does have the money which is probably less than they spend on hair care products for dogs but would they part with it for a piece of American and British history like this? You are probably right. However wouldn't it be great if the navy could do a project like this to train people for deep sea recovery? Course we would need a vessel big enough to pick something up the size of a submarine ;<)

I am not sure about those submarine rumors, those sound like Tom Clancy things or what they talked about when I was on those ship looking at Ocean samples but I agree, funds are there...However of those magnitudes..Yikes,,,,I know the going rate back at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) for Alvin (DSV-2) for two scientists and one pilot was about $225K/hr. My convern would be that level of muck that ship is in, a 500 ft free water descent and that would bury in at least 3-6 feet in silt, +226 yrs is going to take some pretty extensive lifting and hull evact. to clear that huge suction cut under the hull. If the hull is intact to handle the strain.

Last time I went Big Boat shopping my GPS was acting up and for some reason I ended up in Susiun Bay ! That place looked rather empty to me and not in great shape for decent boating either. Unless you have any decent boating area's in your neck of the woods.

HMS Ontario

Looks like she was a nice ship !

Where's Dirk Pitt when you need him???
Clive Cussler would be the one to do it

My guess is those two are off some place figuring out a secret method of pulling it off without anyone figuring it out until years later when the book hits the story. That would be a awesome team, maybe get Tom Clancy involved also with some modern hi-tech goodies and pull the thing off ☺

What claim would Spain have over a British Brig-Sloop of War ?

Maybe they do that a lot, or Bignigjim is Canadian?
Spain & Canada have some fishing rights issues. Canada and Spain Face Off Over Fishing Zone 1995

Maybe the ship has Spanish doubloons ?

CSS HUNLEY was in 30 ft of water and was a 7.5 ton metal ship, not in 500 ft and a 226 ton wood ship, there is NO comparison between those two. We have raised ships, that is correct, but that one, I would very much doubt will come out.

Plus you would not find any remains of any bodies on this ship. Sea life took that many years ago.

Sirius-

This one? HMS Ontario (1780) I'm not seeing it there.

Maybe I should have clarified. A portion of it is taken straight out of wiki. I didn't mean to make it sound like the whole thing was plagarized... but it would still be enough to get a failing grade on a paper.

It's the Quarter Gallery article on wikipedia. (Sorry, I don't know how to link.)

One suggestion for you on that comment.

I didn't mean to make it sound like the whole thing was plagarized...

If you look at Wiki and look at the page that Cletus Provided in the URL above, it happens to be the exact same AP author that is on this article. So what got copied ? Wiki sourced the material from the article, not the other way around.

HMS Ontario was a warship of the British Royal Navy, built in 1780, that sank in a storm in Lake Ontario on October 31, 1780, during the American Revolutionary War.[2]

[2] a b William Kates (2008-06-13). Explorers find 1780 British warship in Lake Ontario. Associated Press. Retrieved on 2008-06-13.

I actually wasn't referring to the article that Cletus linked to. It's the Quarter Gallery article on wikipedia that was last modified on 2 May 2008, at 15:15 (at least according to the bottom of the page). True, it states that sources were not cited in the wiki entry but I highly doubt some random Joe copied an article that hadn't been written yet.

This is a quote from the wiki entry:
"Quarter galleries are a kind of balconies, typically placed on the sides of the sterncastle, the high, tower-like structure at the back of a ship that housed the officer's quarters."

And from the article:
"The clincher was the quarter galleries on either side of the stern — a kind of balcony with windows typically placed on the sides of the stern-castle, a high, tower-like structure at the back of a ship that housed the officers' quarters."

Anyway, it was just an observation. As a student who has to listen to a lecture about the severity of plagarism at the beginning of each term it's frustrating to see it happening in the media... and I've seen it quite a few times.

Thanks for the tip though.

As a student who has to listen to a lecture about the severity of plagarism at the beginning of each term it's frustrating to see it happening in the media... and I've seen it quite a few times.

Hah ! I know that feeling...

I will take a look and see what I can find, it does not surprise me what you are saying however, I have run into that all the time.

If you want to link things on Newsvine, you use HTML to do it, if your a new user, you might not have that menu option turned on yet. However here is an article that might help. Let me know if you want any help. This is a older article, but a pretty well written one also.

HTML for Viners

Hi, I'm Haus. I've been editing here for, well, considerably more than two years. I generally work on articles related to ships, the shipping industry, navigation, maritime unions

This editor is a Veteran Editor, and is entitled to display this Iron Editor Star.

This user has started 92 or more new articles on Wikipedia.

This user has made over 26,000 contributions to Wikipedia and, as a result, may be slightly insane.

This user is a member of the Ships Wikiproject.

This user is a Third Mate in the United States Merchant Marine.

This user is or was a member of the United States Navy.

My guess is in looking at the guy that wrote the article on Quarter Gallery on 2 May, he probably knows what he is doing... Other then that, I have not seen to much on this ship, but will do some searching at the U's library.

Cool. To be honest I didn't even know about the ship until this article came out. I would love to see this thing, but unfortunately I'm not much of a diver. oh well.

I had read about this one some in National G. I think, but not all that much. I am a little more interested is some of the WWII stuff and back like the Titanic wreak as I know the guy that discovered her (Bob Ballard from MIT-Woods Hole) but to make a dive on this thing ? whoa...forgot it...I love diving, but not at 500 ft.. I spent alot of time in the South Pacific for work and loved diving in Truk and Kwajelein,but that was no more then 200ft at the most and that was also perfectly clear 70 degree water. Not 500 ft 38 degree water. Big difference... I have gone diving around here a few times and yikes, that is rough, some awesome starfish and sealife, but cold and nasty currents.

Tedd - 500 ft.

Yeah, you gotta be on helium-oxygen, with gradual pressure changes of what duration?
Many days at least, in each direction.
not a simple process.

The newer stuff is using what is called CCUBA" (Closed Circuit Underwater Breathing Apparatus) or more common just "rebreather" which has a decent electronic metering system and recycles the air the remix with a gas combination called trimix.

Before that, most everything was the former use of Heliox which is basically just a careful mix of helium and oxygen.

The main problems start coming up and something you always have to watch for is anyone with any hint of asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), bronchiolitis or allergys. If they are going to have problems, with Nitrox its going to be far far worse. That is the biggest reason for the gradual buildup in pressure.

No, not a simple process, a complex one with many risk. The rebreather is far safer. This is the stuff for the commercial divers that get paid big bucks, but do not have the longest life spans either.

Thanks for the update Tedd,
I was "before that". "trimix", I assume, is helium-oxygen-nitrogen. Wikipedia agrees.

That part get a tiny bit confusing.......Yes and No....The words "Tri-Mix" is old Navy slang for exactly what you just said. The Brand, Trimix, is premixed, in certain blends, for deep dives, it is A hypoxic mix, that is called Trimix 10/50 which is good up to about 500 ft. Then they have a second series of mix's called the Normoxic Trimix series which always have a odd number in front and will again be like a car weight oil an average one that I have used is 21/30. That is good up to about 175 ft. Blue cans vs the deep water which are red.

So the new stuff puts some H2O vapor in, i'd hope?

Its some form of vaporous gas, I looked at it once, but am not as up to speed on it as I could be Calvin just went thru a certification problem, I have more just looked at it.

If you want to link things on Newsvine, you use HTML to do it, if your a new user, you might not have that menu option turned on yet. However here is an article that might help. Let me know if you want any help. This is a older article, but a pretty well written one also.

HTML for Viners

Thanks for the link, Tedd. I'm terrible with the HTML stuff. This will really help.

your welcome Amazing, I might be as old as the hills, but there are use's for me still. I work well as a umbrella stand I have been told also.

I work well as a umbrella stand I have been told also.

Don't sell yourself short. I bet you're good for carrying the umbrella as well. LOL

pretty fair...of course not on equal with a Texan.

Why not just leave it?

Exactly....Why dig up a grave ?

Only 15 atmosphere's of pressure also at 500 ft... Good luck in diving to, that is only a handful of people in the world that can do that depth.

...."tomfoolery and buffonery" lol, you are THE KING. LOL, that's great lingo. :) Kudos.

Good....now I have a witness....I thought I was seeing things when I saw that...

I concurr. Whatever the cost the Museum would probably make it back in a few years and then become an important economic engine wherever they located it. I know I would make the trek. I travelled across the country twice just to see Fallingwater. That's a lot of coin. But somethings, well, you just gotta be there.

Bodies ? After 25 years, there is not all that much to look at, at 228 years with sea life eating away...good luck. Nothing, at all was ever found on Lusitania, Titanic or Bismark.

Butyric fermentation

I'm sorry, but I see it as weird that people would be so anxious to bring up this historical relic just so they could get a better look at it, while ignoring the very real possibility of destoying the item they want to look at. As a history buff, I say leave it where it is.

Thats how I feel. Its history the way it is now . Now all rebuilt. The same with the Titanic and all the grave robbers that have gone after that ship. I believe when a ship sinks, that is its final resting spot. Do not disturb. The old law of the sea. The is a excellent chance of destroying the entire thing if you raised it.

Tedd -

I'm for bringing some of them up, but we really don't have the technology to do it properly in this case.

That part I agree, bring up the ships log, records and binnacle whatever, but try to leave the basic ship intact, Far too often the ship ends up getting destroyed or looted if not very careful.

destroyed or looted if not very careful

There's a company making very expensive watches from metal salvaged from the Titanic. Stunningly beautiful, obscenely overpriced and a really awful contrast of rust to new materials.

There's a company making very expensive watches from metal salvaged from the Titanic.

oh....those slimy neds.....that is a International Historical site. The Titanic Society would go after that company with guns blazing....that is sad to hear....ouch...

Red Wolf

It's just weird to me that anyone would pay extra for that 'feature'.
Nothing better to do with their money, i guess.

They're selling between US$8,000 and US$300,000.

I can't find details on permission or not. I suspect they bought the metal after the fact from someone else who salvaged it, but can't find details on that either.

The rusted steel bezel is the result of the extraordinary fusion between authentic steel from the wreck lying 3,840 metres under the sea, and steel supplied by the Harland & Wolff shipyards in Belfast, where the Titanic was built almost a century ago.

They claim to be limited editions, but it's unclear whether the number is across the entire range of six watches or per watch, because just over 2,000 pieces is not a limited edition, that's a standard run.

Permissions are all pretty clear on Titanic. It was a very large legal case.

R.M.S. TITANIC

Swampslogger,

you might be surprised at the pervasiveness of anti-Americanism among Americans; especially young Americans. Go on Youtube to some of the comments pages on various politcal issues and just watch. The phrase "we stole this country from the Indians" is a mantra I've heard and seen countless times. But a thoughtful examination of history paints a different picture-William Penn, for instance, was so fastidous that the Indians be paid for their land he sometimes paid two and three different claimants effectively paying for it several times. You might percieve the Indians as a "vicious bunch" (and rightly so) but many see them as sweet tree hugging victims massacred helplessly by the evil white oppressors.

I would say to that idea "tomfoolery and buffonery"

Oh what a wicked knave thou art. Wouldst thou leave yonder brave sailors in a watery tomb? Raise thine vessel to once more see the light of day.

There is no life in thee, now, except that rocking life imparted by a gently rolling ship; by her, borrowed from the sea; by the sea, from the inscrutable tides of God. But while this sleep, this dream is on ye, move your foot or hand an inch; slip your hold at all; and your identity comes back in horror. Over Descartian vortices you hover. And perhaps, at mid-day, in the fairest weather, with one half-throttled shriek you drop through that transparent air into the summer sea, no more to rise for ever. Heed it well, ye Pantheists!

Ships that remain underwater eventually decompose and the information they contain is lost forever. When possible archaeological recovery makes sense to me.

The Ship sank in a storm. A big secret that is hidden in these things called books is that people could swim back then too. I doubt there were any bodies on board, because as the ship went down, the crew would try and stay were they could still breath. I don't think a ship that sinks in a storm should be called a war memorial.

these things called books

What kind of format are these things you speak of ? are you thinking of maybe .pdf, .doc .txt ?

I think Dan was referring to the idea that we want to know the history that this ship can teach us.
I agree with that, but i don't have faith in our ability to do so without destroying what one intends to study.